How to Create a Comfortable, Ergonomic Workspace | Interview with Mike Pace, Senior Channel Sales and Marketing Manager at Contour Design

Ryan Purvis 22:56:23
Hello and welcome to the digital workspace works Podcast. I'm Ryan Purvis, your host supported by producer Heather Bicknell. In this series, you'll hear stories and opinions from experts in the field story from the frontlines, the problems they face, how they solve them. The areas they're focused on from technology, people and processes to the approaches they took that will help you to get to grips with a digital workspace inner workings.

Welcome back to the digital workspace works podcast Mike, you want to tell us a bit about yourself, please?

Mike Pace 22:56:57
Yeah, I'm Mike Pace. I'm the Senior Channel Sales and Marketing Manager at contour design have been with this company for about 10 years. Love it. Honestly, I love the fact that what we do as a company is, you know, obviously, we're in business, and we're here to make money. But at the end of the day, we help people. That's really what drew me to contour and what kept me around for so long.

Ryan Purvis 22:57:17
What does it do the workspace mean to you?

Mike Pace 22:57:20
Digital workspace, I mean, that is really anywhere these days where we're doing business, right, I mean, digital workspace can be something that no matter where you sit, we're all interconnected online. As far as you know, we have people in our office, we work globally through Copenhagen, I speak to people in Europe, at all times of the digital workspace it for us is is you know, that meeting point of online of being able to bring these ideas and bring these, you know, efforts together from a global perspective, that the world evolves. And as we get more and more intertwined, and interchangeable as far as technology goes, you know, I remember the days when Macs and PCs were completely in incompatible. If you had a Mac and you had a PC, you couldn't collaborate on anything. And now these days, that's long gone. And, you know, no matter where you sit, no matter what you use, you're always connected. And you're always able to collaborate and create. And I think that's an amazing thing.

Ryan Purvis 22:58:14
Yeah, now that now that you've, you know, had chance to remember what I looked at, I mean, I went through websites, and I was fascinated by some of the stuff you guys had. And in fact, I was talking with my mother in law yesterday, because my son is just turned five when he's 5 turning 6 now, but he's just to that stage where I need to buy a computer. And I was thinking about, you know, do I buy on a desktop to buy a laptop. And then we were talking about what he needs to have the tactile feel for a mouse because he's going to struggle. He's got dyspraxia, and the touchscreen will be important, but we still want him to use a mouse and use trackball and those sorts of things. And I'm not looking to yourself again, going oh, yes, I remember why I wanted to end this conversation with I was thinking about this. So tell with us a bit about what about the products and how they fit into what you do?

Mike Pace 22:59:02
Yeah, absolutely. So we are a manufacturer of ergonomic mice. Contour design has been in business for 28 years now. And we only do one thing I stress that we do one main thing and then we accessories. But our main thing is ergonomic mice, right, we try to function like a really high end restaurant where we have a small menu, but we the things we do we do exceptionally well. The main product line we have is super funky, it's called the Roller mouse. So it's not something that you would think of like a traditional mouse, it doesn't sit to the side of the keyboard. It's not like a one handed thing that you kind of grab and you know, manipulate it sits in front of your keyboard. And it's got this bar on it that you kind of roll around almost like a fun adult Etch A Sketch, if you will. And that allows you to control the cursor. And it's a really different way of thinking it's a really different than traditional design principles. But it's more ergonomic though it allows people to use both hands work ambidextrous ly creates better synergy with the keyboard and it also allows people to work all day with being pain free, not having any discomfort, a lot of things especially in the ergonomic spaces, you know a normal mouse you grab it once you start using it for a day you feel fine. It's five years after you've been working, you know eight hours a day to computer that you start to notice like oh my wrist a little stiffer. Oh, my fingers start to tingle. Our mouse is that something that stopped that you know stop the track and for a lot of people who aren't fortunate enough to have like full blown carpal tunnel or something like that it alleviates the pain.

Ryan Purvis 23:00:36
It's it's kind of fortuitous to be having this conversation because I cannot figure out why am I my forearm has been so solid last couple of days and it's because I've changed from Apple Magic Mouse that I've now changed to a trackpad. Found it's a split my fingers open and closed 30 times they that's absolutely create some some tension. It's a fascinating product. I mean, I'm looking at the pictures on the website. I never conceived of something like this. I'm very curious. Do you have Is there a backstory to how they came up with so?

Mike Pace 23:01:08
Yeah, absolutely. So our our original founder, Steve Wang. He worked in CAD designed back in the 90s I mean back when it was you know, black and white computers with you know, just lines and there was no windows that was you know, DOS prompt way back in the day, he noticed that a lot of the CAD designers because it was so mouse intensive, we're getting carpal tunnel at like, an alarmingly high rate. So we wanted to do something to change that. And he made a handheld mouse. And you know, it worked for its function. And it was nice, but you still notice that there was a lot of issues. When it comes to just the idea of a single handed mouse, I mean, no matter what the design is, you know, you're still reaching over to the right, you're still activating muscles all the way up to your shoulder and neck. And you thought, okay, there's a better way to do this. And following ergonomic principles, right? Ergonomic is kind of the study of our bodies and how we use them in our working environment. And the goal is to always get back to what we call neutral posture, right? Neutral posture is just imagine yourself standing or laying in bed and just having your arms by your side and completely relaxed, right? That is the posture where we will not hurt ourselves doing things. So how close can we get to that, where we work? And the one thing that you noticed was this motion, right? This, I'm reaching for my mouse over to the side, we want to keep our elbows in as people. So he was like, alright, well, how do we get closer to the keyboard? How do we minimize that wasted motion? And that was kind of the birth of the idea. And there was a ton of different back and forth of should it be closer to a tuck pads, should it not be and then you know, tuck pads themselves and not really ergonomic down to the more finer muscle groups, because you're doing a lot of pivoting on your wrist. So we wanted to have something that was allowed to do use and be dexterously without creating any sort of pinpoints or pain points. When it comes to ergonomics. And through funds of testing. Tons of you know, r&d. We came up with our first molar mouth back in like 2001. I was in like seventh grade, but I say we did. But it was it's been something that we've been dark flagship for the past, like I think, almost 20 years now 22 years. And it's been something that, you know, we're small, it's not something that is designed for everybody to use, but the people who need it, and the people who understand it, and the people who have won, they get it. And they love it. And that's one of my favorite things about working here, too.

Ryan Purvis 23:03:40
Yeah, that's I can imagine. I'm actually curious. You know, I used to have a Microsoft keyboard. Oh, yeah. Did you ever have one of those? I mean, because you'll keep us all together. I'm just curious. If they're the reason why yours are the sort of standard flat versus that that natural keyboard as I used to call it?

Mike Pace 23:03:58
Absolutely. Yeah. So the the sculpt keyboard was that split one and had the rest, rest. And if you are keyboard heavy split keyboard is something that's really good for you, because that's the most natural park you can have. But the one thing it doesn't solve is the mouse, right. And we're coming to find that more and more of our jobs. It's not as much keyboard data input word processing as it is, we're using our mouse to navigate we're using our mouse to you know, click and drag and navigate website, manipulate Excel spreadsheets, you know, whatever our tasks are, it's becoming much more mouse centric, than keyboard centric than it was back in, you know, even the early 2000s. When when technology and the programs were not as sophisticated and relied a lot on keyboard shortcuts instead of using the mice for you know, more intricate task. So I think that they it served the purpose, especially if your keyboard heavy, we find that that is not the case for a lot of workers these days. So the way that we designed our mice is that the mouse kind of comes first, because that's our primary mode of interacting with computers these days. And then we built our keyboard to accentuate the benefits of the roller mice. So our balanced keyboard was designed specifically to work with the roller mouse. So you're getting the most synergy out of that mouse keyboard combination. on its own. It's not the you couldn't compare it to the scope because it's not designed to be on its own an ergonomically specific keyboard. It's meant to work with our products so that we get that best workstation possible. So overall ergonomics are taken into account for the keyboard and the mouse, not just the keyboard.

Ryan Purvis 23:05:41
Interesting. That's cool. And you said I mean, obviously, it was started in Copenhagen or something I ended up in Copenhagen, but it's a global company. Do you distribute through your direct or do you go through resellers? I mean, what's the what's the model?

Mike Pace 23:05:57
Oh, yeah, we we worked through and Copenhagen in our European I mean, these a little harder navigate when it comes to import export laws. So they work a lot specifically through distribution and resellers. In the US here we work with you know, we obviously the CD W's, the staples of the world, the big office suppliers, you know, we work with them, but we have a set of like nice ergonomic resellers as well. You know, the ones that will go into other spaces and help do the ergonomic assessments and you know, recommend the products and help people navigate the world. Because we're not the only ergonomic mouse out there. For every one of us, there's 17 Other companies and same with chairs and desks and monitor arms. So for those who aren't in the ergonomic world, it can be a lot to undertake. And there's a great value in having all of those resellers who are, you know, working with us and helping making sure that their clients are getting the best needs, the best products for their clients needs. You know, obviously, we do direct, you know, we have a website who doesn't lose days, and you know, Amazon as well. So we try to be omnipresent. No matter where you hear about us or find us, we try to make sure that we're available for whoever needs us, because it's not that people work in our office, there's a lot of people who work from home who work of contractors who are self employed, that needs solutions like this, too. So we don't want to we don't want to get keep it from anybody.

Ryan Purvis 23:07:16
Yeah. With my son in mind, you know, he's, he's gonna start this journey that we've all lived with, you know, typing on a keyboard and using your mouse. And, you know, you want it, you want to give them the best. So, I mean, the kids version of these things, I mean, doesn't necessarily mean you have to have a kid sized keyboard, but, you know, you want them to start off with it with a good foundation. Oh, absolutely. So, and I mean, it almost be like a value added product, we have one that's got bright colors, you know, print on it, or something.

Mike Pace 23:07:46
Yeah, that's kind of LEDs, the kids kids love that. It's, it's funny, too, especially like, I have a nephew, and you know, he's a gamer like most kids are, and he games you know, a lot with his friends, I mean, that's kind of replaced to the, take your bike down the street, and go play basketball with friends, you know, hop online games, a party chat and play some fortnight, or whatever it may be. And it's really interesting stat floating around there. And I don't know how verified it is. But I can very much see it being true that like, again, the professional gaming world, the average lifespan for professional gamer is like five to six years, because of the toll that gaming takes on their body and their wrists. And like gaming mice, while very cool and sleek looking and very bright. They're not, they're not ergonomically designed. And it's one of those things, especially as young kids start to do it, and they start to gain more and more, it's like, you know, we're setting ourselves up for failure here, like most of our customers right now are people in their late 30s, early 40s, kind of the back end of their career, because they've been using a computer for 2030 years, but they probably didn't really use a computer full time until they were like in college. Right? My generation, I started middle school, but this younger generation, I mean, they've, you know, you've heard the term iPad kid out there before, you know, it's, they've been using technologies and put the young age and you can kind of see it coming, that there's going to be a big wave of issues, if we're not giving the correct tool to be safe while they're using it.

Ryan Purvis 23:09:22
Ya know, and that's the thing. I mean, and we've talked about this, again, yesterday that the school system and everyone's like in the US, but the school system in the UK, that the average teacher is not geared up for giving that kind of advice on how to use it, how to use the device and how to set it properly and whatever. And I mean, I'll never forget, I was working with Shell as they were a client of mine. And we had a staff member from Shell come and work with us in the office. And he got there and she didn't sit down until the health and safety inspector had arrived. And basically done an assessment of her workstation, the right chair the right you know, the right desk, the keyboard a certain way, mouse certain way, the whole thing, and then she would work. And I was like wow, that's like that's like the the Rolls Royce kind of version of of these things. But it's as simple as like, you know, getting up and walking around every 20 minutes or 30 minutes and doing some neck exercises and shoulder stretches. And no one teaches you any of this stuff. And the only way you find it is on YouTube. Yeah. If you're looking for it, you know, you got a physio there. So when you really shouldn't be, you know, like I'm standing actually balance going to wobble board while we're talking. Because I find that if I did a week of sitting and then my back's sore for for the next week.

Mike Pace 23:10:39
Absolutely. And I think especially in the US, it's you don't get that education until it's too late. Right they go to your job, your office, you get the standard desk chair, probably have a sit stand desk, nobody tells you how to use it, you get the you know, $3 mouse and keyboard that came with the computer that they gave to you. It's when you're complaining of wrist pain or your shoulder hurts or you need an ergonomic assessment or, you know, God forbid carpal tunnel surgery or something like that. Then they teach you oh well you know you should be doing this you should be doing that. It's a very reactive kind of thing where the very basics of ergonomics is definitely the stuff that doesn't require purchasing products. I mean, those are great products. I mean, you know, I worked for a company that makes these products and these are great add ons to make sure that we're being safe. But a lot of ergonomic is stuff that we can do ourselves, setting the desktop correctly, there's like, I could give you four things right now that, you know, if everybody did just at their desks and workstations up correctly, it would be a game changer for him. It's super simple, you know, it's like stuff like making sure your monitors at the right height and distance, right? Do your monitor and an arm about an arm's length away from you and make sure that it is eye level, like in the top, you know, 25% of the screen, that's going to put you in the proper position to not have a bad neck posture, and to not strain your eyes, your desk and chair, right, if you're sitting, make sure your tear arms and your desks are at about the same height and that they're 90 degrees for your arms. So you're not adding extra pressure or having weight on the shoulders and neck. So you're not gonna have a stiffer neck. The chair, have your feet flat on the floor, have your knees at 90 degrees, you know, it's very simple stuff that we just don't think about. But as soon as we kind of like everyone that I've ever explained this to and then like, these are just a few very simple things like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. You know, they're very common sense things that we're just not trained to think about. So it's about changing the way we think to think about how our body is meant to be and how it works, and not putting it in awkward postures or straining it because it might not feel like it in the moment. But it's that build up over time that really starts to have that like, you know, you sit in the chair for a week, all of a sudden, like, Oh, my backer one day, it's like, nobody does, you don't notice, but it's that build up over time.

Ryan Purvis 23:12:59
And yeah, I mean, I, I've always had trouble with my calves. And I sort of thought about when I was last in South Africa. And she said, you know, if you just said every night, just before, when you when you're watching TV, you sit on the floor with your like, we go back supported by the chair, but your legs straight, you just let that stretch naturally happen. You'd have less cord pain, like the next day. And I've been doing it like we do for months now. And the first kind of couple nights I were doing it it was it was very tight, and very slow and very uncomfortable. But now it gets it for like a whole episode of something, I'm reading a book, I'll read a chapter to them, like I've now set for long enough to be more than 10 minutes. And I feel fine. And it's certainly things like that, because, again, we sort of conditioned that you're going to be sitting, always sitting in a chair, or lying on a couch or whatever. And that's not that's not a good thing to be doing. And actually the other thing I've been adding is sitting cross legged, like the silo thought cross legged for a little bit, and then you get your hips going.

Mike Pace 23:13:58
Oh, yeah, that's huge. I one of the biggest things that I think we forget about as a culture, like I don't know, in the US, almost everybody has a sit stand desk, I would venture to guess that maybe 20% of people who have them actually use them, you get to sit stand desk, and it stays at one height, right, you present the height, like oh, this is nice, and then you never move it. That's not what they're meant for, you know, it's the varying of the posture, the avoiding the stagnation, especially our lower body. I mean, think about it, our hamstrings, our quads, our calves, our hip, if we're sitting all day or in this prone position, we are offloading so much of our weight onto that and that just sits there and then one flow stagnates and then our muscles tighten, we don't have that, you know, that natural movement that we as humans are built for. I mean, we're not at the point in evolution, where we're evolved to sit eight hours a day and work on a computer, like we're just not there. So you know, doing something like every 45 minutes or 50 minutes, even, you know, sitting, puts a standing desk up and stand for that other 15 or 10, you know, every hour you do a straight work, take a break. And don't just stare at the wall and think about sports, like go for a walk, get a coffee, do something to move your body, you know, It's the simple things that I think we were so conditioned to not pay attention to to lose track of that are really easy to implement. And once we do, we just realize how much better we feel when we're working, you know, and have a really interesting disconnect between, like pain and discomfort and the economy or we're at work because I feel like there's this massive focus on productivity, where it's like, I can't I don't have time to take a five minute break. And even though my shoulder feels like it's falling off, I have a deadline to hit. I gotta get this done. And I honestly think it's detrimental to productivity to work through things like that, you know, you're not at your best when you are. It's not like a Snickers commercial or anything here, but it's, you know, you're not when you're not feeling your best. You're not going to work your best. It's like in sports, right? Somebody's got a sprained ankle, and they're supposed to be back in four weeks, but the team needs and so they forced themselves back in three weeks and you know, they're not going to be 100% You're going to expect 80% productivity of what you would normally expect.

Ryan Purvis 23:16:09
Unless you could Schilling and you

Mike Pace 23:16:11
That's true. Well, we we don't want to talk about Curt Schilling right now. He's he's he's not in anyone's good graces over here in the US right now. Nice things you can do, but, you know, performing hands, trying to decide.

Ryan Purvis 23:16:29
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And you mentioned something about going for walks and looking outside and all that stuff. And I think the one bad thing about COVID to an extent as much as they want everyone to level up, and to use the technology to work from home and remotely, and and you know, get more good, more balanced life. There's the back to back meetings all the time now, because now you just don't you just got access to your diary. And I think you've got to build those those boundaries to say, well, you know, what, I like my meetings always, like, I shorten them, I'm generally and then that 10 minutes is normally like, I'm gonna run to the run and get something from the kitchen, but I'm still doing something away from the desk, and I'm gonna finish my son now. It's a 20 minute walk, you know, just in the UK. Now, it's not always the sun, but at least it's outside.

Mike Pace 23:17:16
Yeah, yeah. And that's, I think that's one of the things that we're cognizant, we need to be cognizant of as well. And even if it's, you know, setting, if you have back to back how long the meetings, setting one to be, you know, and five minutes earlier thing, you have a hard talk just to make sure you can stretch your body. And it's not even just body to its mind as well. I mean, that five minutes to go away and think you think about anything, think about what you're getting from the fridge. Think about Curt Schilling's bloody sock, you know, think about your favorite episode of Black Mirror, whatever, whatever it is, it just allows us to physically and mentally reset ourselves. And I think that kind of gives us it's, it's a quick little battery charge between productivity sessions. And I think that's something that we definitely lose sight of. And I know that I've done a lot of things recently that have kind of helped me reset, because, you know, we've had, especially with, with, you know, having an office in Europe and having one in the US, I get an early every day to make sure I can meet with them on certain things for teams. And then I go right into morning meetings here, and then the other half of our teams in California. So it's like all throughout the day, you know, there's constant check ins, and really making sure that we have strategies in place to not overwhelm ourselves is a great way to make sure that not only we stayed really productive, but also happy at work. I think that's also overlooked these days.

Ryan Purvis 23:18:33
Yeah, it's funny, because I, we went through a period of our life and we would go to gym every day between nine and 11. And largely that was because the gym had a crash. There was a young kids, we could put the kids in the crash and it was all fine. Then, as we as the kid started going off to school, it became a little more difficult to get the nine to 11 was dropping off and all the rest of it, but once I was working stuff, you know, you'd have meetings on those slots, I was ready to get out there. And I was actually think I managed to sneak out the gym today. And I was actually thinking about it that I should actually block out the gym time not as gym. But actually is thinking time because when you sit in a during your workout and you do in your 20 minutes on the treadmill and and your weights and then I go the best. The biggest thing for me is the sauna at the end. Even even if you're listening to a podcast or you listen to music, or whatever it is, your brain is like because you're doing this mundane repetitive action of listening away to something. That's the time your brain is going huh I can now join some dots because you don't even recall the time you know think yeah, what time yeah, now I can tell you some stuff. And it's amazing. I had like 10 ideas today and I was like this is why come to gym not for that. I mean I love the workout but it's actually the thinking that happens.

Mike Pace 23:19:45
Yeah, absolutely. I mean I the same for me and cooking I love to cook I mean you know I work the nine to five and I get out I still make sure to make myself meal at the end of every day because it's that that task of kind of putting your body on autopilot, right you know what you're doing, you know what you have to do you have the recipe or whatever you're cooking or whatever your regimen is at the gym, and you should go and then your brains allowed to wander and kind of you know, be creative and have these ideas instead of just having to ingest and regurgitate information ad nauseam because of what the meeting requires or what you know your job function is. And that's really important you know, having that time to make sure that you're able to let your brain kind of wander and flex its creative muscle.

Ryan Purvis 23:20:31
Yeah, yeah 100% What do you what kind of cooking do you do?

Mike Pace 23:20:33
A little bit everything. Honestly, I heritage wise, I'm Italian so you know, fresh pastas all that kind of stuff love that have a slight addiction to carbs and you didn't work on but it's neither here nor there. But I really love that I'm not so much of a baker baking is much more scientific. You know, you're off by a couple of grains of salt all of a sudden the recipe shot I'm much more of a cooking as far as like, you know, still top grill that kind of stuff more art is a little more room for interpretation. You can alter things and not have to worry about the whole recipe being shot but I like to explore I don't have the single thing I try to pigeonhole myself with I'll try anything I'll Indonesian cuisine perfect. Where can I find the ingredients? You know, let's give it a shot. So it's one of those things. It's an outlet where like just to use some creativity and and try new things, and my mom was a really great cook. So I've always had that it was the first year in college when I had to eat cafeteria food that I realized how lucky I had it. And I was like, Oh, crap, I should probably do myself how to cook because guess mom's cooking was better than everything else. What do I have my mom to thank for that?

Ryan Purvis 23:21:46
Now that's good. I mean, my, obviously South African we grew up we grew up cooking on the grill so braaing. Oh, yeah. You know, a lot of that. But also because of we've got so many different nationalities. I don't actually but but tribal influences because you got Xhosa, the San ect, you know, we live different languages as official languages plus more. There's a lot of stuff done in pots, where the pootjie, which is a, you know, slow cook pots as well that you put on the fire. And all that stuff is, I think a lot of it is therapy. I think in that yeah, it's just that time to get out of, you know, you've got it like like a pootjie, he cooks for four hours. And it can't get too hot, because you burn everything. So you gotta you gotta monitored, but it's like, it's like boring monitoring, because you got Yeah, a lot here and there. You know, that sort of thing. So I think it's important from a psyche point of view. I mean, I don't have anything else to ask you really, because I think I think the product really speaks for itself. I think everyone needs something like this. And I think we've done some really great hints and tips around, you know, product, you know, mobility of the joints and, and you unhealthy when you're working is anything else you want to share? Do you want people to come to the website?

Mike Pace 23:22:56
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, look, no matter what you do, if you're working for a computer eight hours a day, I mean, the injuries surrounding ergonomics, they're called repetitive strain injuries, right. And it's the repetitive part that we need to pay attention to, they're not nearly as dramatic, as you know, getting run over by a forklift, or slipping on a wet floor and tumbling down a flight of stairs, right? Like it's so they always end up five kind of being in the back of the mind, even on people who have like on safety teams, right, just because they're not something that are very dramatic and very instantaneous. But it's something that we all need to pay attention to, you know, you work for eight hours a day, and these are tools. Now if we don't have our hands, I mean, good luck trying to control the mouse with your foot, you know, it's not going to work. So I need to take care of our bodies, we need to take care of ourselves. And you know, whether it be just implement implementing some basic, you know, of the tips that we just talked about, and stuff like that, or, you know, adding on to that, to really make sure that you're protecting your investments, if you if you catch my drift, is looking at an ergonomic mice, an ergonomic keyboards and having the correct accessory for your desktop. So you can work in comfort, and it really allows you to be the best view you can be. I'm not trying to take an old army slogan from the US or anything, but it really does allow you to function at your highest level. And I'd say we're definitely worth checking out, you know, we only do one thing, and we've done it really well for a lot of years. So if you're interested in looking at ergonomic mice, contour design.com is the place that you want to check out. There's a lot of educational materials on there as well. It's not just like, hey, here it is buy it, you know, they go behind the why we try to explain the principles in ways that are, you know, understandable, we try not to get too deep into the jargon. Because we want people to really understand that the ergonomics and why the products are important, not just for people with carpal tunnel, but for everybody.

Ryan Purvis 23:24:51
I think it's an important thing, as I said, and I think one of the things that I'm curious to know why you have done this, you know, why haven't you guys got a stand up, sit down this?

Mike Pace 23:25:01
Yeah, we're small company. Yeah. And, you know, we tried to focus on what we know what we can do and where we can have the most impact. There's a lot of people making the sit stand desks and they do a really great job. We don't see a need for us to do that. Because that markets well covered, we want to make sure that like I've mentioned before, you know, where we tried to be a really fine dining restaurant, small menu, but what we do we do very well. Excellent, even though we make sure that all of our resources all of our time go into providing the best mouse and keyboard setup for people who live on a computer like most of us do nowadays.

Ryan Purvis 23:25:38
Yeah. And I love it. I mean, I looked at the price again, I mean, I think I bought actually the laptop stand from you guys. So I have bought a product. Yeah, I think it's a great, it's a great space. And then I look forward to seeing what people say when they listen to the episode and hopefully reach out to you guys.

Mike Pace 23:25:57
Yeah, absolutely. We've I mean, it's one of those things that I like to consider myself a you know, like the people on the side of the street, especially in Las Vegas. And then there's something in the Bible. You know, I like to think the ergonomics Bible, it's I think it's something we should all care about. And of course, they know us. Having the products is fantastic, but even even sort of that it just makes you feel you're taking care of ourselves and taking care of our bodies, I think is an important thing that we can't lose sight of.

Ryan Purvis 23:26:23
Yeah, I agree 100%. So you mentioned the website. If people want to search on LinkedIn, I assume that's fine.

Mike Pace 23:26:29
Yeah, absolutely. It's this handsome faces right there on the profile picture under Mike pay. So pretty easy to find.

Ryan Purvis 23:26:37
Fantastic. Great. Well, thanks so much for coming on the podcast and I look forward to seeing more from from a company.

Mike Pace 23:26:43
Awesome. Ryan, thank you so much for having me. It was really fantastic to talk to you today.

Ryan Purvis 23:26:48
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