Sept. 20, 2020

Which Star Trek Captain Would Be Best at Digital Transformation?

Which Star Trek Captain Would Be Best at Digital Transformation?

To celebrate reaching the 20 episode milestone, we discuss the leadership styles of different Star Trek captains and who would be the best at driving digital transformation.

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Which Star Trek captain would you choose as a project leader? Kirk? (So long as you're not wearing a red shirt.) Georgiou? (Prime universe, obviously.) Maybe Sisko's sense of fairness appeals to you or Picard's brilliance?

Join us for this special 20 episode celebration where we rank Star Trek captains by leadership ability and find out who we would choose as a digital workspace leader.

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Ryan Purvis  0:00  
Hello, and welcome to the digital workspace works podcast. I'm Ryan Purvis, your host supported by producer Heather Bicknell. In this series, you'll hear stories and opinions from experts in their field story from the frontlines, the problems they face and how they solve them. The years they're focused on from technology, people and processes to the approaches they took that will help you to get to the scripts for the digital workspace inner workings.

Heather Bicknell  0:32  
Hey, Ryan doing well, Happy 20 some episodes?

Ryan Purvis  0:36  
Yes, 20 years. That's true. 2020 and 2020. Kind of catchy.

Heather Bicknell  0:42  
Yeah, we made it.

Ryan Purvis  0:43  
So we were discussing how we would do for this episode. And the idea I had to be honest, I started from another podcast completely unrelated was to look at the Star Trek captains and how they would be applied or or which one would you want to lead your digital workspace initiative. Where I heard this from was actually in one of the baseball ones of those two, they were comparing Benjamin Sisko, which is one of the captains to your stable if you want to build something in one place, kind of Captain Norris have plod along, but that he's that guy that that you go to just to bring stability. Walk on beacons, heaven forbid, but he was there to sort of bring him up because he's the only Star Trek captain in the future. He talks about baseball in a good light. headlight. And it's triggering. I remember those episodes from DSI were quite cool. But we've got this list. I think they noted 11 captains. And we could probably start from from the 11th, which is probably the newest, which is Captain Philip a ga of the mirror universe. Hmm.

Heather Bicknell  1:57  
Yeah, I mean, so I guess a bit of context is that I am not very familiar with Star Trek. But of course, Ryan is super familiar. And I've read the swelter article about all of the captains. So I'm basing all of my takes on the descriptions outlined here. I did actually catch an episode of Deep Space Nine on the vacation I just took. We just had cable on which is kind of a novelty because we don't have it at home one night, and there was a Star Trek episode and I was like, Okay, this is this is fate. I need to do it. I need to learn what this is all about. So I think it was a super random episode. It was about what's the captain's name in that one? Yeah. His son going on his first date and his alien friend. I don't remember his name who messes it up for him.

Ryan Purvis  2:53  
A man she's a

Unknown Speaker  2:56  
it's not like spork or something like that. One word,

Ryan Purvis  3:01  
Fox. That's Kwok son. Yeah. This? Yeah. Well, yeah, we'll get there. We'll get there. Yeah, it's funny. I've watched every single episode, every series except for the original series. And I'm trying to do the original series right now, but it is killing me. It is so bad to watch. I don't know how I am. I must be. I might be struck by lightning by the Star Trek gods. But I just find that acting is so terrible story to demo, but the acting is just so bad. Yeah, it's Yeah. And maybe it's wrong to find from the more modern ones back to the originals, but we'll finish them

Unknown Speaker  3:42  

Ryan Purvis  3:43  
that's my fat. Right. So let's start off with this Captain Phillip of Georgia, sir. Have you watched discovery at all?

Unknown Speaker  3:49  

Ryan Purvis  3:50  
So discovery is is the newest series or your themes. And what's what's quite common with with each of these different spin offs, is they have a sort of the cannon they keep doing and they obviously flavor it up differently. And I'll be honest, the first season of discovery I thought it was terrible. was a really like far away from the Star Trek. Besides Korea Star Trek, you wouldn't actually thought it was much of Star Trek. It was that bad. And then they sort of took it to change like some of the main characters like putting lines into a very different type of betrayed and doing different thing which, which for me, always seemed to ruin it because you're kind of used to a certain way of seeing the Klingons. And then you see in this different way. I was like, constantly guy. That's not how they look. That's not how they talk this. They're very, very, we have in it. It's quite a bit in season two. But there's sort of this one, and they call it the Murray universe. And that's because this this series is a lot more about interdimensional travel as opposed to just in one dimension where everything's happening. So She's in the mirror universe, she is the exact polar opposite of the other captain, which is from the sort of main, let's say, the main universe. And I don't get way too much of the plot. But because it is it is worthwhile because that actually quite clearly did this, but, but she's basically a tyrannical either way, if you say Rome shall kill you, you know, no, no sympathy, no, no empathy in none of those sort of things later. Yeah, so probably not the one you want. And, you know, so you were reading Dune as well. It's that kind of she's like our Conan sort of, you know, to teach people listen, we'll just kill fast fire people. So they know that we feel nothing so nifty, not one you'd want to go with. So Moody, murderous tyrant would be the classification. So we'd probably say, she's definitely out. So the next captain is Gabriel, Luca. So the interesting thing about him is he's actually blind to an extent, which is really the first. I mean, besides, you know, the odd character here, the first time a captain has been put in position we can't function fully did say and but he he's also kind of one of those What are always called a politician type captain, where, but but not not out for, for the best of the crew, but more up for the best of his agenda ends up being in a funny as things go, he's more more of a bad guy. And if you think about some of these projects, as you go on, you've got this person who's leading it, and after a while, either you either deciding that they are, they're driving for the right reasons, or they are, they're screaming a barrier, and you're trying to find that one. And you realize that actually, they screwed up the screwed up on purpose, because they actually wanted something else to happen. And they deliberately made these moves so they could do another move. Yeah, so I don't know if you had any thoughts based on what you read?

Heather Bicknell  7:04  
Why did like, you know, this other article? So this article is framed in? Who would you want to be your boss, which is a little bit and I think, you know, what we're doing is, who would you want to sort of lead your digital workspace so similar, but different? But I did you know, they did point out that he wouldn't be a boring boss. So you'd at least have the you'd be kept on your toes? I guess you'd have that factor. So that that counts for something, right?

Ryan Purvis  7:32  
What will he does remind me of a boss I had many years ago who would do these zigzags. And you think you've agreed something and then the next day, there's a new plan because something's changed. And they're trying to zig and zag. So yeah, definitely not boring, but definitely not the kind of, you know, when you when you do a big transformation and moving people into like, you know, from physical to VDI, you definitely want someone that's a bit more level headed, that that's working to plan and thinking through and all that kind of stuff. really driving division. So the next one, and this is this Captain Christopher Park, I think he's referenced twice in this article. sort of make sure that that is,

Heather Bicknell  8:14  
Yeah, I think so. Yeah, this is original series one.

Ryan Purvis  8:17  
Yeah. So this, this is an interesting one, because he only really appeared in a few episodes. And in fact, the act of the plays Pike, if I remember correctly, was supposed to be Kirk. And I didn't really like his presence on the stage, if you like, so they ended up with Shatner. And but he Yeah, he is also a bit of an interesting one, because he's portrayed in different series with different characteristics. So if we look at the original series, one key that the pilots and then he did sort of an episode later on, he always comes back as as a really respectful, get, you know, governor or air of authority, get things done. That probably a hard person to work for. That makes any sense will work with. That's probably why you didn't really get the vibe you want out of out of the series.

Heather Bicknell  9:22  
Yeah, the article kind of calls him a Debbie Downer.

Ryan Purvis  9:26  
Yeah, yeah. I would agree with that. And you think I guess it comes back to the complexity of which attorney Do you want someone that is not always going to tell you how it was can be so difficult and so hard to do and so complicated, you want someone's interaction. It's complicated, but we can solve it by doing this and that and keep it simple, and it solves this problem on the whole. That's that's the thing is he kind of makes everything feel big and ominous where it's supposed to be. Fill up some small things. And we then get to Captain Jonathan Archer was Which is probably one of my favorite captains. This this because this one's played by Scott Bakula, those who ever watched quantum leap and that sort of thing. What was nice about this series is this is all pre Captain Kirk. So this is like the first enterprise or the first starship going out from Earth with warp drive capability and that on missions. And so this is someone that's going in the great unknown, and having to deal with aliens for the first time and that kind of stuff, which is, if you're in a Greenfield environment, and you're trying to run this project, you need someone who, you know, is prepared to be adventurous. And also roll with the punches per se. Pretty good series, actually. I mean, it was it was full of them. I was actually saying that canceled, because was really good, really, really good. But he's pretty well balanced. So he's, you know, if we look at the previous ones, if he not murderous, and he's definitely a Debbie Downer. And he's pretty diplomatic. And he's probably the first of the Capitol. And that is diplomatic, to the point of a lot, shooting from the hip, in a reasonable place politics pretty well. And when you're doing these, these projects, when we talk about politics, we're not talking about necessarily, you know, Donald Trump versus, you know, Joe Biden or, you know, bigger president versus whoever we're talking about someone that can read the room, and try and find compromises to, to solve the problem. And when you deal with the business, from a technology point of view, it's a lot about that, it's it's trying to understand the businesses reservations, get into park with with the investment to to do the project. And then also to adopt the solution that they have should be part of the process in deciding on to an extent, and then, you know, getting on board with it. So if we talk again, about the physical virtual move, or even today, where everyone's been forced now to, to use technology, like zoom and teams and, and work remotely. Traditionally, it's always been pushed down the Pirate Party list, because agendas were, well, we have all these offices, people must be in them. And having the ability to work remote is great for those that have to be on the road. And now everyone's on the road in theory.

Heather Bicknell  12:15  
Yeah, I like that, you know, the article describes Miss chill, and I feel like, you know, based on what I've gotten out of this, that he could potentially benefit someone who might lead with empathy. I mean, they make a note about how he spends a night in sickbay hanging out with his sick dog instead of like, attending to his duties, which I feel like just reveals a nice human side that, you know, maybe would inform his leadership style.

Ryan Purvis  12:48  
Yeah, he's definitely that kind of guy. You know, sort of prepared as much as an adventurer is also prepared to, to hang out and you know, shoot the breeze if that's what that's what people need. token you know, he's put his foot down if he has to. So it's probably one of the one of the captains or like, like the most within, we get into number seven, which is the captain DMC coup, but the Chris Pine one, so this is the reboot, Kirk. Pretty good. I thought as a as a replacement for William Shatner, who I'll be honest, it really enjoyed in the movies, not so much in the original series. But he's, he is your quintessential brilliant, never say die, personality will fight to link to the last minute which, in some projects, it doesn't need to be like that.

Unknown Speaker  13:49  
And he,

Ryan Purvis  13:51  
in a lot of senses will lead by example. And I've worked for some CIOs like that, and with some people like that, and they are the best ones to have around you sometimes because they will not to tell you what should happen. But they'll do they'll do with you and build a reputation and trust that way. And specifically, when it comes to running out new technology, you need someone to take the bull by the horns and, and can make it sort of argue drive that out of the possible with the the Artemis it's very, very works. So yeah, I would say pretty, pretty, pretty fun in the sense of it'll be, you know, high speed, high pace, get it done MIT mentality, but also driven by bringing ever on the journey to get to the desired result, which is a successful project.

Heather Bicknell  14:42  
Not afraid of innovation, you might say.

Ryan Purvis  14:45  
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely. See, they sit in the eyes and really come that might be cool. Yeah, I mean, it makes them a little bit less rough edges as Moo's have gone on, I tend to be with that. But then he also, again, I'll give away the plot of those movies and people haven't seen them. Yet he starts off being a criminal in the first movie, to being the captain of the enterprise, which is the flagship, you know. So, so you could always say, one of those people you bring into cabinet you bring into chaos to sort out and get back on track. Mm hmm. We then go to the cook. That's that Shatner. So I mean, the article says, you're probably better off working for this gentleman than the previous one for different maturity point of view. But I'd almost say that's how the series was. Because I was if you watch the original series, it feels like you're watching a play as opposed to TV. It's very theory theory. theatrical. Mm hmm. But But I like this comment, prepare to work hard and maybe die but you feel like your mission that could change the universe really better. And I have seen that in some organizations we I remember getting an email from a very high I think he was a CIO saying what we do here is life and death. Can you kind of look and go well, it's important but it's not life and death. Yeah, this does have some perspective

Heather Bicknell  16:21  
maybe someone who had have a hard time separating life and work

Ryan Purvis  16:26  
well it's sometimes organizations is like that I mean, there's an expectation that the work is is the is everything you know, working long hours you know being totally committed putting your family aside that kind of stuff I don't know if that's still the case in some of those places, but it was definitely like that when I worked for them and it's all consuming which it also becomes a bit of a drug you kind of get used to the kind of enjoy the the speed of but I'll probably say in this case when it comes to this is this is the battle hardened program manager that you work with this done this 10 times before and and makes you feel comfortable that he knows what he's doing meanwhile governor clue and he's going running you know from shoot from the hip and if you can if you use a distributor along the way he's okay with that as long as he gets the result but he's put in this and as I say he is willing to put himself in harm's way as well. But as the TV series goes, Captain hardly ever does it always have the red shirt Yeah, as it says that wouldn't be a good boss what would you get to be a good lead for your thing? Chances are you love working for cook up to the moon you got you kill. I think that's pretty that's pretty apt.

Heather Bicknell  17:42  
Right maybe at a young hungry stage in your career where you can take a few falls so

Ryan Purvis  17:47  
well. That's it. That's exactly it. I think it depends on where you are in your career. I think you would do that. Because these sorts of programs and projects are those big ones that do tend to change organization and I have seen that in some organizations where people have joined project team and then interesting work on this project because this is like this is a big thing in the game like everyone knows about it and reputation whatever and then in six months time you look around and go wait what happens that person I know they weren't good enough they're gone and you kind of feel a little bit mad made for you but that that is sometimes that is that is a cutthroat but but they can be the kind of project where there's no time for a sort of training project it's a you know, tight deadlines you know, tight budgets to live as much as you can fight this faster than you than you think possible. Cool. Next word Captain Philip a ga in the prime universe. Okay, so this is the the opposite of the the mirror universe. And secondly, political clicker, calling plans that were put firm. See, probably one of the stranger captains and they've had big or strange roles and because in this series, you've got this captain, and then you've got Michael Burnham who's the first officer now Michael Burnham is not a male, it's a female. And she is a human that grew up in the Vulcan culture now if you don't know anything about that, basically Vulcans have luckily emotions away and they're very logical. So she has this no no motion approach that actually is she the actress plays really well. But But you never show who's actually in charge. In the first season, or at least that's how I remember.

Unknown Speaker  19:40  
But she but she,

Ryan Purvis  19:43  
she does I mean, as the captain goes with with Captain Georgia now she does tend to make good decisions. You know, it gives everyone a shot, but then, you know, when she puts a stamp on it, then the stamp is on you know, that's what we're doing. So yeah,

Heather Bicknell  20:01  
Yeah, it sounds like this captain. Did she not I was there not as much screentime for her, she kind of got backstabbed. So,

Ryan Purvis  20:09  
yeah, she can remember the season was was longer when I watched it, but basically just I think she gets killed somewhere along the line. Yeah. And this is where the other captain, the guy comes in, to take over. And then you have the mirror universe one come in as well. And there's, and there's this crossover between dimensions and she comes in. So she doesn't get it sort of written out, she just comes back in and plays a new character. But But, you know, generally speaking, she was she was pretty good. And, and, and one of those leads that you'd want to have that that's going to get you there. But I would say at a at a moderate pace, you know, slow and steady to this, do this, do this, do this, then we'll get there as opposed to some some capital leaders will come in or captains and they'll drive it and every good in two weeks, why can't in one week? Mm hmm. Yeah, that sort of thing. Right, next one is the cast this is number four Captain Benjamin Cisco. So as I said, this is one of my favorites. So he is basically shafted in a way and put on this this space station next to a wormhole so highly political area, multiple factions and you know, a lot of history and and he has to navigate those politics while basically putting the space station back into continuous.

Unknown Speaker  21:48  

Ryan Purvis  21:50  
as as the guys in the baseball sort of episode said, you know, he's the guy you really relying on to build the baseball the foundation in both the next layer the ball, the next land and hold it all together, where, you know, sometimes you have a leader come in and then just just say, to do the change that to make make this thing happen and then hand it over to an operations team and then they go off and do something else. Whereas this is this is someone that that is changing everything but also owning what is changing. Pretty pretty firm. Very very diplomatic very hard and hard negotiator I would think. But pretty good guy, you know kind of goes from fire to fire cleaning up putting out you know, stabilizing things. But we are getting one of those those guys you want to work for again and again. And again.

Heather Bicknell  22:38  
Yeah, the article says he's got a lot a lot on his plate, very inspiring, diplomatic leader. I thought it was interesting to the the pointing out the shades of moral greatness that he has to deal with. So you know, I think, maybe not morally all the time. But there are decisions, right, where it's not clear what and you know, one way or the other, that can be a lot of complicating factors. So I think the ability to take all of that into account, and then, you know, make the best informed decision possible is a really important leadership skill and not get, you know, to consider the decision but not get lost in it.

Ryan Purvis  23:20  
Yeah, and that's very, very similar to how a lot of these projects run, you've got a lot of knowns, but you have many unknowns. And if you look at keeps going to the example of moving physical to VDI. When you design that and you put it in place you're designing it for for not necessarily the entire organization to use the video platform initially, you're going to build it over time. And you know, a BCP or business continuity plan that says, a certain amount of capacity will be available to run over to, you know, that sort of thing. But if you're looking at a lot of a pandemic, you need all that capacity. Because most of those users that were going into the office to go work on a desktop or whatever, have now and work from home. So they need to get into that that VDI infrastructure, which means your BCP becomes production and your production needs to production. So you have a strong hands on the wheel for that. And also you might be have to build out new new capability because you don't actually have enough capacity. We have to change your capacity to meet the need because you could have been away on your new cycle. And then that's that's dealing with the unknown, I'm able to handle it and potentially, you know, selling the that sort of weapons, that's how they envision but but when you told me the business about investing in that, you always have to sketch that you thought about that sort of stuff, even though the likelihood, you know, a year ago would have been has never happened to we've just gone through it, you know, in the moment. And yeah, he says one that I want to work with. And then we have another park in the three So this one is really a cameo in this in the Discovery Series. And it's actually talk now of a spinoff series for him. And he was in the movies as well. But this actor per se, but but the pipe character, because the original Captain on the enterprise was pike. And he hands it over to Kirk, both in the series and in the movies. And Spock was the first officer on earth. And I don't think Spock is actually our listeners, but Spock should also be considered what we will maybe add him as a bonus. Yeah, but I think he's, you know, typically, as we said, you know, pretty well balanced guy, very commanding. You know, very direct, very hard on a walk on people below him getting things done all that kind of stuff.

Heather Bicknell  25:50  
Yeah, they describe him as a cool camp counselor. pill as long as people follow the rules and listen to his orders. He'll be their friend.

Ryan Purvis  26:00  
Yeah. Do I tell you to do fun, don't do that, then do what they need to do. And then they will meet the rest of, of mankind. But that's that's a bad pun. Yeah, I mean, he is like, and you already say he's, he's uptight. I think he's uptight, compared to the other captains. But I also think he's, he'd like, Picard is next. And Janeway also was also quite good teachers. So they tend to do something very harsh to teach the person or lesson to improve we I don't like to be fair. And that's maybe why those series were the best because they were they were very teachable. You know, it's always educational watching it sometimes. Right, so then we get to record number two. I mean, we we talked about you watching the record series, do you ever get a chance to watch it?

Heather Bicknell  26:58  
I have it but now I mean, how Picard manages like a benevolent but firm God. So?

Ryan Purvis  27:08  
Well, it's funny because I was when I went to work this list the first time and we were talking about some of the slack repo and I, and I was actually surprised that he was that he was number two, until I saw who number one was, and actually when we asked him in the morning was like, yeah, that's that's exactly how I would see it. So maybe just talking about the series again. So you've got you've got enterprise, which is pre cook, then you've got cook. And in the same sort of universe is kind of is Picard and Janeway. And Janeway is one, because they're all sort of in the same timeframe. But even though each series is kind of different in a sort of technology in this life minister, but he did, he was interviewed. And the reason why he was selected as to play this role, is because of his Shakespearean background, because he was a Shakespeare actor, he can really pronounce an orange and stuff like that. And going back to, you know, what kind of leader would he be for your project, I mean, he is the or inspiring person that we need. I mean, if you look at the amount of memes on the internet, with code saying something, he is that kind of guy. But he he does something which I don't think many other captains did really well, is he surrounds himself with a lot of diversity. So he has a very strong first officer to IC, which and that other series besides maybe Kirk and Spock, and Burnham with the GA, you don't necessarily see that strong first officer. Paul, you see them at that, but they're the main actor that then then you sort of expand out into the circle of characters and they kind of get a bit weaker, the further you get away from the first officer, whereas with Picard in his, in his season, a series, he's got a strong First Officer, he's got a telepath for a counselor, he's got a very strong weapons officer who's acting on so and so you know, very aggressive kind of guy. And then he's got a first a young guy, where's the crusher, who he basically brings up from being a teenager into an officer on the deck, on the bridge. So you see, all those dimensions are very much, you know, lead for lead, pull the best people together, get the best people to operate and do the stuff and then find the young guy to bring up and, and, and educate at the same time. So really, we're really all rounded EDA, which is what you really want the only big program with it's going to be multi year and gonna really change the business.

Heather Bicknell  29:40  
Yeah, I think being able to build a strong team is a really important leadership quality and not, you know, and then setting the organization up for that long term, longer term success by having individuals with a lot of strengths and you know, if one person leaves or you know, something happens, you know, Others are empowered to pick up the slack. And it's not well, you know, top down.

Ryan Purvis  30:06  
And that's interesting thing. So if he, he completes the picture and says he walks away, then anyone any of his team could take over. You can see the comfort and, you know, they naturally are prepared for as opposed to in some of the cases if you're Spock where it wasn't there, there wouldn't be anybody really after Kirk to drive things. I mean, you know, there's there are people that probably could try, but you wouldn't feel that same confidence at least I wouldn't vote of confidence. So he's definitely one of the stronger ones then. And also known as probably the go to guy for diplomacy with complicated situations, which is why you need to watch the series because and read the book.

Heather Bicknell  30:53  
Which one first, it's more important.

Ryan Purvis  30:55  
I would, I would honestly say if you if you really want to do it properly, I would watch the watch the series that not there's not a coin series, I watch the next generation series. Then I read the book, and then I watch the Picard series. Now, the Picard series is not completely linked to the next generation series, but there are pieces where you're where if you'd have more stats here, you'd be like, 30. Understand this not sure why. That kind of thing.

Heather Bicknell  31:25  
I've taken I've taken a note to make should

Ryan Purvis  31:29  
be like, I don't know, it was seven seasons of 20 episodes each and my goodness. Yeah, I think

Heather Bicknell  31:36  
that's what's I mean, it's like, it's one of these things like Star Trek, you know, it's it's whole universe, which, you know, once you get into it, it's like, yes, there's so much content I can consume. It's like never ending. I mean, you're still watching the original series. It's like, you know, there's so much to dive into. But getting into it as a newbie is is a little overwhelmed.

Ryan Purvis  31:57  
I'll be honest. Anyway, I watch series is if I'm working so like, we weren't doing this last weekend. It'll be running while I'm working. And I'll be like, Oh, it's interesting. gerwig It's interesting. coworking was too much time to to invest.

Heather Bicknell  32:12  
Yeah, I mean, that's, I guess that's my problem is I can't, I need to be like, laser focused. I love like silence when I'm working. Just like if I could just be like at a soundproof room with like, zero distractions. That's where I do my best work. So it's hard for me to, you know, then make time it's like, you know, I feel like I've been working you know, I work a long day I make dinner. And I crashes like, that's, that's the pattern. Maybe I play 15 minutes of Animal Crossing.

Ryan Purvis  32:43  
You know that that's the problem your waist was Yeah.

Heather Bicknell  32:50  
Come on, that's bad, like my quarantine therapy. My meditation

Ryan Purvis  32:57  
on Monday when I get into a series like this all Benjen so it'll be you know, while I'm while I'm making coffee in the morning, it's what I'm watching it a little bit. And while I'm, you know, doing something else and beyond the background, so that's the only way I find to get through it is you got to make it part of your other stuff. Right, so now we get to number one. So this is Kathryn Janeway. Now, and this is a LSA. All the other episodes while the seasons have been based on the enterprise as the ship barring the S nine, which has a space station and then discovery, which was cool that was there another ship to discover ship, Voyager is her ship. And what's really interesting about this season series, which is we're waiting so cool, is that they were basically thrown 70,000 light years away from the normal space. So they call it the Delta Quadrant alpha quarter where they work. And then there's the D Delta Quadrant, so you know, completely out of the known environment, and they have to get back home. And, you know, in order to do that, she's you know, all these other capitals have had the benefit of leveraging relationships, they have alliances, they have knowledge of the vessels, they have to deal with the the competitive landscape, if you like, the picture of you basically, you know, if you worked in the UK, for example, running projects, and as and when you were sent off to go work in the Middle East or in Asia, and you know, no one and you have to run this project. This is the kind of position she was in. And part of that was also she, when they got thrown out into the southern quadrant. She didn't have a full crew. She actually had a bunch of or she had a little half a crew, and I think she had about 25 rebels that they were actually tracking and chatting. immersions crew now with the rebels and her crew together to make 100 crew. And that's one of the themes of this. Now, going back to sort of a project, it's the same as in some cases where you've got your IT team or your project team, which is made up of your company staff. And now you've got a vendor that's doing all the work for you, or as part of the team. And then vendors obviously trying to, at the same time fight against the fight against but, but they're trying to, you know, make more money out of it, they're trying to build more, they're trying to oversell on Ninja, whatever those things, all those dynamics that are constantly happening. And, and she has to sort of navigate that whilst traveling through a new environment where she knows no one, making alliances and not making anything undoing alliances, and in particular vessel, which has got all this technology that no one else in that quadrant has, which obviously makes it prime which in the same sense for a project you be protecting your investment in the rich ago. So yeah, definitely one of the I mean, one of my favorite CD series, we have watched a lot because I've enjoyed her, her way of handing and I think cable girl who plays her does a fantastic job of playing by into the season, buy into the stereo almost distort into interview, enjoy that her way of things. So she's she's definitely definitely tough. And, you know, I would probably I probably agree with the statement, you know, will be the sort of sort of leader that you might complain about behind your back. But she's also when you end up naming your first child after definitely, definitely hardcore definitely, you know, top top achiever and leads, by example, but also expects, you know, your absolute best at all times, there's, there's no, you know, give me, you know, you've you've chosen to perform would be the sort of underlying message. And but he does Listen, which is always a key key skill when you when you earn any sorts of programs, or to listen to everything to make good decisions, and then drive those decisions.

Heather Bicknell  37:13  
Yeah, I think you really hit on all the key points, I think the amount of, you know, compromising, and the ability to do that, and to bring those disparate groups together can be a really important quality, I think you pointed out, you know, can be the vendor, and it kind of relationship, the, you know, or the partnership there, the push and pull. I think also sometimes within organizations, you know, these huge silos get thrown up where, you know, maybe you're building something for another, or you're, you know, helping procure some software for another part of the business, you know, I think even internally, sometimes there can be sort of those competing, you know, desires or sort of, you know, one group needs it done this way, but there are restrictions, or the other group is sort of gatekeeping, you know, you know, we still need to keep things like security and you know, legal stuff or whatever it is in mind. So even internally, there can be a great need for, you know, hearing all sides and coming out with the best decision to move forward.

Ryan Purvis  38:21  
Yeah, and it's something that we probably have glazed over and haven't said, I mean, one of the things that I've always appreciated about the the most sci fi series fully enough is, is there's always good diversity. So there's never a sort of white only or black early or anything of that nature, it's always pretty clear. Or pretty, pretty even unfair. And the same from a sexist point of view, there's, there's very little, you know, you've got a female characteristic of male captains, you've got, you know, it doesn't, none of that stuff really matters, which is the kind of universe you want to live in, where, you know, the best people are doing the right things. And even in his in her series, she does have a bit of that problem where her first officer who's the head of the, the rebel outfit, he, he sort of buys into the fact that that he needs to work with her and be in the first officers best position, but his crew, which is where both male and female, want him to be in charge, because he's the male. And, and also because they don't want to work for her because she's a female, and they handle it really well through the seasons as you go along. But it would be very much the same as what we deal with nowadays with with, you know, the black life matter and, and even just equal pay, you know, for for both females to be occurring to male roles. So, it's a good it's a good part of the Star Trek rule installs as an extent but the Star Trek defeat is a lot better in that sense. Yeah. And then the last thing was the bonus one, which was Spock and and the reason why I don't think the list is the captain cuz he probably wasn't captain for very long. But that he actually was he's been he he ends up catching a lot a lot of the time on his own his own missiles and stuff like that. So if you look at the reboot, Episode, reboot Movie Star Trek, he has left Starfleet, and he's now in his own mission. He's literally Captain his own vessel. But he has in the Star Fleet world, Captain as well. But he is your ultimate logical, endless tech person who give me the data, we make a decision and then whatever is logical is what we're going to do. Because he's half human, every so often is unpredictable. Which, which I would say, he gets better than more predictable he gets, which is where Leonard Nimoy who played into the movies and the original series, and Zachary Quinto played him in the new movies. Birth really played well. Where you always got the sense that he was he was predictable, trustworthy, reliable. And then every so often, you were throwing this little catalyst that you go holy cow that was really quiet and but you know, I never thought you'd do that. Or, and these are key, you know, movie points that actually make you really enamored, and that's, you know, we look at running a project sometimes or transformation, you need someone often that is predictable, and is reliable and whatever, but can support that moment to be to change it up and do something that just reignites the project or get the momentum back or saves the day. Make sense?

Heather Bicknell  41:42  
Yeah, I think, from what it sounds like, I think, you know, being able to be analytical and use data to make decisions is super important. And then driving projects along, but it's not necessarily what you know, inspires people to do their best work. So I think Yeah, having that, that quality, that humaneness, if you will, coupled with you know, making good decisions, because of actual reasons is, is a really good leadership quality.

Ryan Purvis  42:12  
No. So out of these images you did any of these sort of when you read through the jump out is used as a jump out to you at least as someone you'd want to see running a project for you be the lead.

Heather Bicknell  42:25  
Yeah, I guess, you know, I might be predictable because they put her at number one on the list. And also Kathryn Janeway. My sister's name is Katherine and spelled the same way. So there's another bias there. But, um, I think just, she, she really appealed to me just the you know, the the boss that is, so maybe maybe, like, tough love, kind of, but it's so like, good at getting things done, that she really like stays with you for a long time. And really, to me, so being sort of, you know, earlier my career, I think having, you know, working with, you know, experts and having people to learn from and to really like push me to drive me further. I guess those are some of the qualities that I would look for, in someone to lead up a project.

Ryan Purvis  43:24  
Yeah, I think that's that's the common thread. If we look at all these capitals, I mean, what, what, what makes them one of the best characteristics? I think, I think there's a ability to listen actively, to discern from what they're getting to give guidance on what the right decision is. Sometimes they actually don't make the decision, which which I think you don't see that in the TV shows much. But I think in real life, it doesn't always have to be the project lead or the leader making the decisions. I think it's a balancing act to allow your teams to, to solve, organize and make decisions provided they know where they're going, which is really their guidance and the net counsel. And then there's that being accountable, you know, whatever those decisions are, whatever the team has been led to go and do. Well, the priorities slightly, I can see the priorities going to change, do we make sure that my team is on shopwired? So that they can adapt? You know, execution?

Heather Bicknell  44:27  
Definitely. So So who would you pick Ryan as your your project leader?

Ryan Purvis  44:33  
So why would depend on the project? I think there's there's, there's this circumstances that I pick one or the other. So if I look at at the project I've been involved in in a really successful it's been a Jain way, or Cod, for a Archer, kind of Captain, who are well reasoned, they know then they know what they want and that but they're prepared to listen and Draw those through. But then they also was once we made that decision, and that's, that's going until information changes that we have to make you just know your decisions. And they back themselves in a circumstance when you're in a sort of if you've done all the hard work, and you've made that change, and now you're going to plod along and dolla bills on the base, that I probably go with Cisco. Because it's a different mindset to the firefighting and the addressing the growth that you need to through organic means, as opposed to project means. And then the rest kind of feel like our copies of those main characters, main captains, but not as all inspiring if I feel like so

Heather Bicknell  45:54  
yeah, I think there's something to be said for that, you know, that ability to inspire and yeah, and excite your team. So,

Ryan Purvis  46:04  
yeah, an excitement is good. I mean, it's not like every day must be a, you know, a roller coaster fun being where you are. Now, but, but at least realizing or noticing when there's a bit of, you know, a bit of motivation that's gone out, and you need to rekindle it or, you know, no one likes to do this one. So no one but most people don't like doing the same routine thing every day. simulating that sort of thing would be important. And, yeah, and I think that's where you're going next, the ones that teach, whilst also driving home, you know, what the, what the vision is where we're going to on the best ones.

Unknown Speaker  46:46  
Have you ever watched holodeck?

Ryan Purvis  46:49  
Oh my God, that's even better series to watch.

Heather Bicknell  46:54  
Star Trek?

Ryan Purvis  46:55  
No, no, this is completely different. So this is reality TV. And I love watching it because it is human behavior It is based on I mean, most of these projects is not about the technology. In fact, the technology, I mean, I'm not gonna say it's simple. But the people are, you know, the, the technology, you know, you can you can build it, and it's, and it's pretty simple in the sense that it either works or doesn't work. And if it doesn't work, then this is the steps you can take to make it work. But in the end, it's ones and zeros, it's gonna work what's not gonna work, but the human side of it is far more complicated. And so below deck I really enjoy because it's, it's all about a crew on a on a mega yacht. So your $20 million mega yacht, and they do a season, so six weeks, you know, in the Caribbean or the Mediterranean, which is when I'm watching now, and you basically see how and these people are throwing together very much like any project we would do in a digital transformation, necessarily, they're going to captain who basically is accountable for the boat. And then you've got your your outdoor crew, which is your deckhands and that that are putting out the toys and wiping down the outside and doing the markings and Michael stuff in the Navy interior crew, which are your stewardesses or stewards that are doing the food and what they deliver their servicing for food and drinks, they cleaning up the boat for from making the beds and doing the washing and all that kind of stuff. And then you have a chef. Okay, and then and then that's what you see for the for the TV series. And of course, you have an engineer and you have first officer but they don't have each feature in the show too much. But you watch the dynamic of this crew having to work together through these charters. So they have a charter of one night, two days, two nights, three nights depending on the on the person favorite and nice people are paying, you know, anywhere between 150,000 to $200,000 for the week to rent the boat with you know all their food or drink all that included. And so you know, it's a guess of, you know, six to 10 people and then you've got your watch how the crew has to look after the guests while at the same time you see all the politics and the you know, the infighting whatever, but the reason why I enjoy watching it is it is I think there's a lot of leadership lessons in there when you're watching. And you're saying oh, I've watched it and you sort of say Oh, can you see how this this thing is happening? And you're like, holy cow, I can have a comedy or they're learning that with the guy get away with it. And you watch someone who will lie blatantly to the captain you're like does this guy not realize that this has been recorded? It's got

Heather Bicknell  49:41  
an amp up the drama.

Ryan Purvis  49:43  
They do fantastically and that is I mean it is it is highly addictive to watch and we will watch because they don't not one episode is one charter then there could be three episodes for one charter so you you have to watch the next one to see what happens. But what's interesting is an interesting And they do the reunion sort of meet up. And then they all had to watch the series before they do the reunion. And then the because while the stuff going on, you're getting like the captain z like in the situation, you know, the chef wasn't following the preference sheet for the for the customer. And and that's a fireable offense. And then on the on the reunion show, sort of talking to you again, it's only if I'd known that he'd lied to me about what he said he had done, that I would have fired him. But I also have a balance effect that if I fire my sheriff, I'm gonna find a new sheriff. I'm in the middle of the mid in the middle of the season. You know, what, Jeff, I'm gonna get, you know, the devil or nose? Or do I take the risk and, and and you see between the two different captains because I watch two different seasons now. You see how the two different captains approaches, and the one that pulls out his phone and goes out and you've seen making the phone call? So okay, great. So I'll see you tomorrow, I'll get on a plane tomorrow, we'll see whatever. And he's going back to his Cougar. And while I will a new ship arriving, continuous time, who can cook we are good. One shift left, you know, and it's how they address it. It's just, it's weird how I say weird. But it's it's it's such a war coming through now is that I'm comparing the same two captains to the same thing. And you said you get the one that's a totally teaching captain, which is fantastic. And you got to old school sea dog, who's constantly saying, This is not a training vessel. This is you come here trained. You know, I don't want to call you to get through the season. I'm gonna watch make sure it happens. as I see fit approaches. So it's worth if you've got some time to watch. Be warned. It's very addictive.

Heather Bicknell  51:47  
Sounds very interesting. I like it's kind of parallel to Star Trek to you know, you have a captain on a vessel and they're out to you know, exploring, you know, the waters or the sky or the what is

Ryan Purvis  52:00  
it so funny because it is a guest that comes on and he's some Penny penny stock millionaire billionaire whenever they don't matter, fortunate money. And they're in the middle the Caribbean. And he's more interested in the Wi Fi connectivity, which is over satellite, so you can do his trades, then being on this vessel, you know, taking a break, and whatever it is. And I mean, that's what they kind of saying like, you know, you're on this vessel in the middle of one of those wonderful ocean, I mean, it's flat ocean, beautiful scenery, etc. And you worry about that stuff. And then you have another guy who's never missed the football game for his favorite team, sitting in the mid trying to watch this game, which is a third up in the morning in the mid and they can't stream it because the satellite obviously doesn't have the bandwidth to push it down. And then how he also freaks out but but you know, you can see how visibly upset he gets because he can't watch the show. Watch the game. And then he only gets audio. So he's kind of watching audio. But he's it's you know, just it's just bizarre. So these goes along.

Heather Bicknell  53:05  
Well, this was a super fun episode. And I'm so excited that we've we've reached this milestone of 20 episodes. It's not for you know, it's no small feat. So

Ryan Purvis  53:24  
well, I'm sure we suppose the average I think I think as many podcasts as this died logo passed in

Heather Bicknell  53:30  
Italy. I mean, it's something I mean, maybe we'll do a podcast about this one day, but it's something that I think is that they're not, you know, anyone can really start one, but I think the commitment to to keep one going and to find new topics to talk about new people to interview, you know, just continue the momentum of it. Especially, you know, when you're starting out as a small unknown podcast, and you're not Yeah, I think, you know, a lot of people give up too soon. Or, you know,

Ryan Purvis  54:07  
if you look at the Facebook groups on that, that watch it already contributed, but I watch them a lot. And you see the biggest the biggest sort of lesson is one of the hardest things to do, which is the biggest lesson you got, you got to be consistent. And the I there are some podcasts that don't follow a routine or a pattern. And every so often you see the episode come out because they they finally caught up and they've done the hour and a half thing, but those are the same guys that maybe have six other series that they're doing. And this is almost a fun one. Yeah, this one I've enjoyed because we have talked to people that are different in giving us insights that that I think are quite educational.

Heather Bicknell  54:47  
Yeah. Well, I'm excited to keep it going.

Ryan Purvis  54:50  
Yeah, thank you for your help you make it happen. No.

Heather Bicknell  54:54  
So to us, it's a team effort. Good stuff and I guess if If anyone wants to join us for more of this conversation, or tell us who they're who they'd like as their Star Trek captain, they can join us over in our in our Slack channel.

Ryan Purvis  55:16  
Or they could tell us how they disagree. Yeah, because I think there's a bigger series we should be watching that gives a better analogy for from doing digital projects.

Heather Bicknell  55:29  
Yeah, great. would be interested to know. So I'll put a link to to sign up for that digital workspace work slack community in the episode notes if you're interested in having conversations.

Ryan Purvis  55:47  
Thank you for listening to today's episode of The Big Nose producer editor. Thank you, Heather. for your hard work on this episode. Please subscribe to the series and rate us on iTunes at the Google Play Store. Follow us on Twitter at the DW w podcast. The show notes and transcripts will be available on the website www digital workspace that works. Please also visit our website www dot digital workspace that works and subscribe to our newsletter. And lastly, if you found this episode useful, please share with your friends or colleagues.

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